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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:54 am 
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Doogie12 wrote:
Ashtic are lower-end ships with high frontal firepower that are easy to flank. The Kriken are short ranged ships with a slightly higher durability and agility. Both factions should be used as balancing dummies.
Just don't use the SAR or the MC to balance anything, they're the highest in individual ship power.

What about CIT? Are they good for balancing?

Also, aren't Nove and HLB also pretty strong?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:56 am 
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Nove are still unbalanced. HLB was never truly verified by me, but just generally avoid using them. CIT are a bit more middle of the road, but they're still higher-end in power. We need more low-powered ships in this, and the Kriken and Ashtic fill that position nicely.
I would strongly suggest that you stick to default Laser Wars weapon values.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:24 am 
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Doogie12 wrote:
Nove are still unbalanced. HLB was never truly verified by me, but just generally avoid using them. CIT are a bit more middle of the road, but they're still higher-end in power. We need more low-powered ships in this, and the Kriken and Ashtic fill that position nicely.
I would strongly suggest that you stick to default Laser Wars weapon values.

I do use the default values. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:53 am 
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Oh, BTW, how exactly do you know if stuff is balanced? Because it's kind of like hypercomplicated rock-paper-scissors.

For example, I made a ship (It isn't important if it's balanced for this comparison) and tested it against Kriken Mihadros. Due to my ship being smaller and lower class (I guess lower class), it got destroyed. However, it blew off a significant part of the Mihadros and it was not certain who will win until the very last moment. Now I tested my ship against Novian Particula-C. It got blown to bits without even scratching it. However, the Mihadros was pretty damn efficient against the Particula-C.

So, basically, rock paper scissors effect.

Now we take into account how many ships there are, and various combinations work differently. Sure, you could request everyone to assemble some standardised fleets for different purposes, but the rock paper scissors effect will remain. Odds are that even general purpose fleets will have that effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:53 am 
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They are [loosely] based off the old Laser Wars by Horsemonster. Novians are terribly balanced right now, don't use them.

See, this isn't so much a "rock paper scissors" thing so much as it is a "large array of different factions who each used different standardized weapons, hull types, armors, engines, etc."
Make sure your ships are not as powerful as the SAR or Miorans (they are the top of the line), and you have yourself a balanced fleet. If you wish your ships to be brutally underpowered, go for it. But for the most part, the Ashtic and Kriken should be near the bottom of the line.

Also, the way to beat the Mihadros is to outrange it, as Kriken ships are only truly effective when an enemy is within range of their beams.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Original Laser Wars was fairly rock-paper-scissors-y with the GORE being Rock (tough but slow), ASDF being Paper (fast but weak), and the Kebb being Scissors (unremarkable statistics and lots of guns).

But with so many new factions in the mix, you can do pretty much anything you want. It's probably best to pick a couple of key features for a faction and incorporate some appropriate drawbacks. Determining final balance simply comes down to playtesting.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Okay. I get it.

The variety between ships makes things interesting, and considering different fleets and ships interact in a lot of different ways, it will probably make battles pretty fun.


Also, Doogie, I'm not balancing against Nove, I'm using it for experiments which don't require balanced ships.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:01 pm 
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I get clipping issues against many ships when using Kriken ships. Maybe you could increase the AI range? Especially on the Baramani.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Doogie. Doogie. Doogie.


I just did some tests. Screw your OP PD.

For good PD, you may look at SAR, CIT and Hydrovian Collective. They have fairly balanced PD. As for stronger PD, I'd say Terrans have pretty damn strong PD. Yours is still noticeably stronger.

I think some nerfing would be in order. Seriously.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:22 am 
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First, ask yourself if the ship would be more effective if the point defense guns were offensive turrets instead.
Then, ask yourself if it really is the PD being overpowered, or if it has something to do with the sheer number of PD turrets.

Take the Sescherin. It is nothing more than a hunk of metal with PD guns. It's an extremely specialized ship, so yes, it's specialized field is going to dominate, yet it will fall short in any other regard. A Sescherin can really only suppress Ashtic two vulcans effectively, and the last time I checked, even the M2 has four.

Now, pit any ship in this thread against other factions such as Miorans, SAR, CIT, Terrans, or anything else that uses not-kinetic weapons, and they will die quickly.

So I will say it again, specializations =/= OP.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:23 am 
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I did. And Ashtic 1 is so ridiculously PD-ified a large spam of anitcannon bullets can't get through, SAR swarm missile spam from Typhoon only gets through because it spams a huge load of missile, NONE of the Novian highly-PD resistant fighters in a squadron survived... An Ashtic 1 can't SCRATCH another one.

Nigh invulnerability to certain weapons requiring huge spam to scratch the hull =/= Specialisation or balance


I could make a ship with paper thin armour and weak weapons but make it so fast only beams with incredibly high turnrate can do anything to it, but that wouldn't make it balanced.

Specialisation is one thing. Making one element absolutely ridiculous while others are fairly bad is no longer specialisation.


Even Calvin said it's really OP.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:42 am 
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Doogie has many good points here Luke, I mean if a ship is really PD specialized then it excels at it's role but being specialized in something means there will be a huge load of weaknesses too like it can't retaliate plus you can just use energy based weaponry to fight PD hence the kriken's weapons, if you play starsector especially blackrock, they have many specialized roles like the mantis who excels at quick fights but suffers too much on Combat Readiness all too quickly

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:52 am 
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CryoSleep wrote:
Doogie has many good points here Luke, I mean if a ship is really PD specialized then it excels at it's role but being specialized in something means there will be a huge load of weaknesses too like it can't retaliate plus you can just use energy based weaponry to fight PD hence the kriken's weapons, if you play starsector especially blackrock, they have many specialized roles like the mantis who excels at quick fights but suffers too much on Combat Readiness all too quickly

...I love how you didn't mention the Imaginos there. Because that thing can freaking solo fleets, but the CR cost is ungodly insane.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:04 am 
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Haha, well, don't mention it :P
There is one tactic I have when I have bunch of e'm to save up CR in the long battles, but I only do that when I'm fighting large fleets in exerelin but after that it's right down the storage, Desdinova is still my favorite when I'm hunting so you can never see me without one and I recommend it.

Anyway, enough of derailing your own thread, any chance you might make some new ships for MC?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:58 am 
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CryoSleep wrote:
Doogie has many good points here Luke, I mean if a ship is really PD specialized then it excels at it's role but being specialized in something means there will be a huge load of weaknesses too like it can't retaliate plus you can just use energy based weaponry to fight PD hence the kriken's weapons, if you play starsector especially blackrock, they have many specialized roles like the mantis who excels at quick fights but suffers too much on Combat Readiness all too quickly



There is a difference between being excellent or good at something and being nearly undefeatable at something or being almost completely invulnerable to something, which is what Doogie's ships are.


There is nothing wrong with being specialised at something, but that something still needs to be limited enough to not make it break something else.

His PD makes kinetic weapons almost useless.

There is nothing wrong with being specialised and decreasing the usefulness of kinetic weapons against his ships, but when the usefulness reaches 0, there is something wrong.



I could make a nigh indestructible shield that blocks almost all beams, excluding some messy ones. Would that be balanced?

Would a ship so fast it can dodge almost everything but has paper thing armour be balanced? "Sure, your ships can't possibly hit me, but if they could, I'd be screwed. Yeah, I'm balanced, you see."

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