New type of tournament rules

Various custom ship tournaments go here, along with old encounters.

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mtheminja
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Post by mtheminja »

Sponge wrote:1. I read the whole thing twice and I still have no idea how the power thing works.
2. I have no idea what half of the weapon/modules actually are, because you changed their names.
That's why he needs to clean it up so it's more understandable.
Sponge wrote:3. I really don't think this is balanced at all. There's no way some segments can be worth several times others. I'd probably be able to pick at the weapon balancing too, if I had a clue what the weapons were.
Well, at least it's plausible that sections vary in cost, and most schemes have balance problems until they're worked out.
Sponge wrote:4. If I get $100,000, why is there a part that costs 50 times that, and why are there parts that cost a large percentage of that?
Because you can't afford them at first, meaning you have to start small? And you might get like $250,000 for victories in later battles, when you're a big ship, so parts like that could become easier to purchase.
Sponge wrote:5. Mounts are a good idea, but I'm not about to sit there and calculate what the values of a weapon are going to be after a mount. It also appears that none of these mounts are balanced with each other. Many of them also don't make sense. For example, why does a small mount deduct more damage, fire rate, etc than a tiny one?
These might need a little tuning, but they're actually reasonable as it stands. The smaller mounts are just to increase your fire rate, which is why micro has faster fire rate than small, and you misread damage, small has more damage than micro.
Sponge wrote:6. Why use such large prices? Call me lazy, but adding up 100 points is a lot easier than adding up 100000 points.
Agreed, that's a pet peeve of mine in games, actually...


Anyways, I just think it's not a lost cause yet, if he takes into account the things we're pointing out.


Edit:
Sponge wrote:7. Finally, do you have any idea how difficult this will be to moderate? I'd suggest writing a script, but since you're changing so many attributes/adding restrictions that SB can't monitor, even a script would be almost impossible to write without a ton of programming experience.
Well, like most tournies, you have to trust the players somewhat, and since changes are going to be incremental (*Battles, gets money* Let's see, I'll take a blaster and a piece 14, please. *Goes to next battle*) players should be able to tally their own ships relatively easily, considering that we start small.
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Rhiawhyn
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Post by Rhiawhyn »

mtheminja wrote:
Sponge wrote:1. I read the whole thing twice and I still have no idea how the power thing works.
2. I have no idea what half of the weapon/modules actually are, because you changed their names.
That's why he needs to clean it up so it's more understandable.
Sponge wrote:3. I really don't think this is balanced at all. There's no way some segments can be worth several times others. I'd probably be able to pick at the weapon balancing too, if I had a clue what the weapons were.
Well, at least it's plausible that sections vary in cost, and most schemes have balance problems until they're worked out.
Sponge wrote:4. If I get $100,000, why is there a part that costs 50 times that, and why are there parts that cost a large percentage of that?
Because you can't afford them at first, meaning you have to start small? And you might get like $250,000 for victories in later battles, when you're a big ship, so parts like that could become easier to purchase.
Sponge wrote:5. Mounts are a good idea, but I'm not about to sit there and calculate what the values of a weapon are going to be after a mount. It also appears that none of these mounts are balanced with each other. Many of them also don't make sense. For example, why does a small mount deduct more damage, fire rate, etc than a tiny one?
These might need a little tuning, but they're actually reasonable as it stands. The smaller mounts are just to increase your fire rate, which is why micro has faster fire rate than small, and you misread damage, small has more damage than micro.
Sponge wrote:6. Why use such large prices? Call me lazy, but adding up 100 points is a lot easier than adding up 100000 points.
Agreed, that's a pet peeve of mine in games, actually...


Anyways, I just think it's not a lost cause yet, if he takes into account the things we're pointing out.


Edit:
Sponge wrote:7. Finally, do you have any idea how difficult this will be to moderate? I'd suggest writing a script, but since you're changing so many attributes/adding restrictions that SB can't monitor, even a script would be almost impossible to write without a ton of programming experience.
Well, like most tournies, you have to trust the players somewhat, and since changes are going to be incremental (*Battles, gets money* Let's see, I'll take a blaster and a piece 14, please. *Goes to next battle*) players should be able to tally their own ships relatively easily, considering that we start small.

Throw out ideas on how you want to change it, I will read it.

Anyway, I don't get how you can't understand that it works on a simple fact that ships can't make power from nothing, that weapons don't use nothing to shoot, I mean, what the hell. how can a ship power 50 or so blasters in one tiny spot? it can't, thats the idea behind the power system. tiny ships have small amounts of power to use, and larger ships have larger amounts to use.


If you guys want I can redo the money system into a smaller thing and start from there :/, but as it stands this is my first tourney thingy for this kind of a game so it needs work. this I admit.

Again, ideas, throw them out here, this is not a single person "lets make a tournament thing" this came from an idea to have everyone working together to make a fun multiplayer tournament like thing :/.
Strideo
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Post by Strideo »

While I agree with most of the criticisms on this style of tournament rules I do think it may some some potential. Obviously this is more complicated though so I wouldn't envy the task of running a tournament under these rules.

My advice is that first you need to clarify some parts of this system. Next you absolutely must use terminology that the rest of us BF fans can understand and use in common! Also if you want us to pay different points/cash for different sections maybe you should post a little picture of each section next to its cost and "function". Yes, we can always look at them in Ship Maker but these rules are demanding enough that you should go the extra mile to help us understand them if you expect people to want to use them.

From what I've seen so far this tournament system isn't ready yet, if you want it to function you've got some more work to do.
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mtheminja
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Post by mtheminja »

Rhiawhyn, we all understand what you're trying to do with power, it's just the tournament description is too difficult to read to understand the details of how it works. If you want, I might find time to post an edited version of your first post that might be easier to read, as I'm good at that sort of thing. And for money, we just meant that the units are a bit too large, although on second look, you do seem to have it reasonably filled out. You should make the cheapest part $5 or something around there and then build up, as smaller numbers are easier on heads.

Also, those are good ideas, Strideo.
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Strideo
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Post by Strideo »

mtheminja wrote:Rhiawhyn, we all understand what you're trying to do with power, it's just the tournament description is too difficult to read to understand the details of how it works. If you want, I might find time to post an edited version of your first post that might be easier to read, as I'm good at that sort of thing. And for money, we just meant that the units are a bit too large, although on second look, you do seem to have it reasonably filled out. You should make the cheapest part $5 or something around there and then build up, as smaller numbers are easier on heads.

Also, those are good ideas, Strideo.
That might simplify things a bit if the prices didn't have so many digits. I'm all for that. :wink:
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Rhiawhyn
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Post by Rhiawhyn »

then i shall get to work on a smaller cost system ;P

And feel free to edit it however, if the entire community thinks that is an ok base ruleset then woo ;P

Anyway before i get started what is a reasonable starting money.. and there was a reason for the 100k start ;P you don't have to use it all.


What do you guys think you should start with (will modify the costs based on the start so everyone can get at least a bsf stock frigate/cruiser size ship at the start ( IF they go for size ;P)

10k? 1k?

500?

pssst, my idea well ran out a while ago and im trying to get it to rain again.. so i have hit a wall when it comes to details at the moment :/
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Post by Sponge »

Rhiawhyn wrote: Throw out ideas on how you want to change it, I will read it.

Anyway, I don't get how you can't understand that it works on a simple fact that ships can't make power from nothing, that weapons don't use nothing to shoot, I mean, what the hell. how can a ship power 50 or so blasters in one tiny spot? it can't, thats the idea behind the power system. tiny ships have small amounts of power to use, and larger ships have larger amounts to use.


If you guys want I can redo the money system into a smaller thing and start from there :/, but as it stands this is my first tourney thingy for this kind of a game so it needs work. this I admit.

Again, ideas, throw them out here, this is not a single person "lets make a tournament thing" this came from an idea to have everyone working together to make a fun multiplayer tournament like thing :/.
In all honesty, I think my criticisms were constructive enough to convey a solution. By saying that I don't understand something, I am implying that you should elaborate on the concept. By saying that something doesn't seem balanced, I'm saying that you should consider reevaluating your prices. It would hardly be fair for me to give you specific things to change at this point, as it is your tournament. And to be blunt, I'm having a really hard time working out balance issues because the numbers are so big and the names are impossible to work with.

On the subject of power:
Yes, I understand the concept completely. I just fail to understand the logic behind determining what you can place on a segment, and how you can place more stuff on a segment. How does a segment get power? What is an engine piece, or whatever you called it? What's this about needing thrusters?

Yes, this tournament has promise, but it still needs a lot of work.

EDIT: @Cost system
Start it at 1 point. Use a simple, standardized rate. No reason to play with multiples of 5 or 10.
Rhiawhyn
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Post by Rhiawhyn »

You don't NEED thrusters ;P but there is a segment that i find it looks a hell of a lot like an engine part (along with one that seems to me it fits the role of a power generator)

Think about this for a second? a battleship at sea has to have some way of producing power? were is it made? in the power plant aka engine room :P

To explain how each segment gets power, is simply by a conduit system (ie anything floating out in space won't get any power unless its a self powered segment) Thus allowing anything attached to a segment use said power it gets from the engine. Each segment has a different type of power system, or none at all, upgrades (i have yet to figure out the system >_<) can increase the efficiency of the parts power system to allow more things to be mounted.

If you want we can go with a general generating part upgrade that designates a part as the ships main power system allowing it a limited power regardless of were the guns are, that one seems a hell of a lot simpler that a segment by segment power allocation.


Why not that? Why not have it so that you can set a single (or multiple in the case of larger ships) part to be the power, one that lets you place a set amount of guns and or devices ;P

I'm still bone dry on ideas however :/


Edit: idea just hit me! why don't we use a modular ship system like the one in strideos new fleet? you buy kits and upgrade packages that change the overall stock ship into a different one... but then it may not be a good idea.. but bleh its all i got at the moment :/.
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