3rd Custom Ships Tournament: Fleets [Submission Closed]

T-002 · Post by **T-002** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:34 am

Just a question for my personal reference:

How many ships would a fleet approximately have? I don't wanna go over-the-top with just a few ships.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:36 am

Any amount you can make within 300 points. There is no ship limit per team, but there are weapons and modules restricted to a certain number per team. Make sure you check on that before making designs peeps lol. And ships must be at most 100 points, and at least 20 points.

Example - 3 100 point ships.
6 -50 point ships
5 - 60 point ships
4 - 75 point ships
15 - 20 point ships
All equal 300 points and are viable fleets.

Just a question for my personal reference:

How many ships would a fleet approximately have? I don't wanna go over-the-top with just a few ships.

antisocialmunky · Post by **antisocialmunky** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:43 am

I wouldn't mind bumping the ship limit down to 2. That might be interesting.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:45 am

Then you would allow 150 point ships, naw keep it as is. I vote against.

I wouldn't mind bumping the ship limit down to 2. That might be interesting.

CmdPrompt · Post by **CmdPrompt** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:46 am

The rules are, for the most part, pretty much set at this point.
If there is some glaring pointing error on my part it'll be fixed, but something like limiting ships to two is not going to happen.

Mr_Wizard · Post by **Mr_Wizard** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:25 am

Well, since a lot of people know about this exploit, I think that their needs to be an update in regards to dieterlings and AI ranges.

I have three idea's for balancing it. Not all should be implemented, only 1 of the following should be considered.

Make AI ranges allowable for all positive ranges only. This completely removes the exploit, but brings back stupid AI use of the deiterling. On the otherhand, its the smallest possible change to the ruleset.

Make the Dieterling cost 30 points. This means that you can still get the good behaviour of the dieterling but at a much higher cost. It is to balance it against a faster ship that uses a different high priced module. It's 15 points for the module and 15 points for the "speed" it gives you.

Limit Deiterlings to 3 per fleet. Limit it to 6 sections per deiterling. Essentially, for a ship with more than 6 sections to teleport,it needs 2 dieterlings. This doesn't remove the exploit, but again makes it a more expensive tactic.

To be fair, if any of these are implemented, I would have to update my own fleet. I reccomend these changes only because I see this as becoming a Dominant Strategy, which is something that should be avoided.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:28 am

I reccomend these changes only because I see this as becoming a Dominant Strategy, which is something that should be avoided.

antisocialmunky wrote:To be honest, its usually better if you put 15 points into your speed.

Actually the strategy has many downfalls, I've been testing it for quite awhile now. Device ships are sitting ducks, unpredictable, and pretty much a toss up even when using them as good as I have made the backstabber design. Fast ships seem to be able to beat em down, ships using tacs beat them down, ships with lancets beat them down, I mean theres alot of downfalls to the strategy I can name. Devices are really not all that much of a threat to warrant what your talking about here, there just another thing to plan on facing. 18 Points is stiff enough, AI ranges can be any as the rules state.

Again if you wish to test some nice backstabbers, Little Ball of Joy/Backstabber is what you will want to look up and download :twisted:
And the alts aren't bad either.

antisocialmunky · Post by **antisocialmunky** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:51 am

To be honest, its usually better if you put 15 points into your speed.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:54 pm

Fleet just made, extremely awsome

Ban/Nerf devices, even though I don't agree that doing so is a good thing?

x2

antisocialmunky · Post by **antisocialmunky** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:57 pm

I wasn't saying fast ships seem to beat them. I was trying to say that fast cruisers and frigates are usually better than devices. Unless of course you've stuck them on a Battleship and thrown everything beat stick on them.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:08 pm

antisocialmunky wrote:I wasn't saying fast ships seem to beat them. I was trying to say that fast cruisers and frigates are usually better than devices. Unless of course you've stuck them on a Battleship and thrown everything beat stick on them.

Wasn't refering to your comment, I fully agree with you and was pointing out I do in bold underlined words I actually wrote before ya said that(ESP

).. But with the non device using fleet I just came up with, your gonna need devices to beat em lol(go figure). So ban/nerf them sure, go with what Wizard says. Then I won't have to worry about device ships like my backstabbers lol. I really don't care eitherway, its Cmd Prompts call. Devices are dangerous to those who use them, as well as those who go against them is all I'm saying. Even when used properly to there shadiest extent.

I'd call these shady Device users, and almost used to there greatest extent. Came up with these at the very start of sponges, I thought they were fairly good. How about you

But even these have there weaknesses, as I have stated.

http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... ber_BS.shp (1st decent model I made)

http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... of_Joy.shp

http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... ng_Ray.shp

http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... m_Hell.shp

antisocialmunky · Post by **antisocialmunky** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:39 pm

Well, now that I think about it...

The only real complaint I have about them is when they teleport off screen and you have no idea what's going on and they because all but invincible due to the fact you can't out maneuver them.

That's REALLY annoying. I guess that it might be a good idea just to limit device ships to positive ranges since the purpose of the thing is to move a ship somewhere, not make it invulnerable with a deflector.

PS. However:
.87 has

Fixed AI Dieterling range checking

listed under the fixes. Can anyone confirm if this fixes it? I still ahve .86. If it does, we could jsut do a manditory upgrade to .88 for the tourney.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:43 pm

Well, now that I think about it...

The only real complaint I have about them is when they teleport off screen

LOL that actually hurts them in fleet combat, and splits them up. What they do good is jump behind the enemy and nail them before there flak can react(or pummel them with beamers from the side or behind), or totally fire on them, and jump again behind them and fire lol. Best way to get behind the enemy or on his side and open fire, plus you jump again once they turn on you behind them.

Try a backstabber vs a Naga 3? :twisted:

*Looks above at the 4 links of shady device using backstabbers*

antisocialmunky · Post by **antisocialmunky** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:48 pm

DarkenShroud wrote:
Well, now that I think about it...

The only real complaint I have about them is when they teleport off screen
LOL that actually hurts them in fleet combat, and splits them up. What they do good is jump behind the enemy and nail them before there flak can react(or pummel them with beamers from the side or behind), or totally fire on them, and jump again behind them and fire lol. Best way to get behind the enemy or on his side and open fire, plus you jump again once they turn on you behind them.

Off screen + deflector = impossible to out maneuver. That basically removes the disadvantage of the device putting you in a exposed spot. You can't try to hit the thing from more than one direciton effectively. Even in a corner a normal ship usually has to protect two directions. An off screen ship can gain more protection from being off map.

But like I said above, can someone who has .87 or .88 tell us if its fixed?

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:51 pm

The rules are, for the most part, pretty much set at this point.

deflector = Not unlimited protection.

Backstabber = Jumping behind you, and will tend to stay on the screen after the opening moments(because of the negative AI range). Jumping in front of the opponet till they get close, then jumping behind and BAM.

Using a 4800 sandbox, spawning each party a quater of the way from the corner itself. Each party in its own corner facing each other, 9999 range.

Where did he go dammit, he was just in front of me. :twisted: Flanking AI seems to put you on the side of your enemy most of the time. Normal seems to work better if your trying to get behind him. Plus there moving so you have to factor in that too.

http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... ber_BS.shp (1st decent model I made)

http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... of_Joy.shp

http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... ng_Ray.shp

http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... m_Hell.shp

Hope these serve as good examples of device users/have fun testing and playing around with the idea....I did. Once again I take a D and D strategy and make use of it in BSF lol. (Rogues backstabbing/teleporting behind the enemy.)

At first I thought That setting a AI range of 0 was the most effective way to use the device, but after almost perfecting this design. I find this one to be about the best I've seen out there, device strategy wise)