Assault the Mothership 2 - Team Alpha

antisocialmunky · Post by **antisocialmunky** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:48 am

I'm not really confortable with the ship stack... I rather have it start a little farther back and the ships in a vertical line(this is how I run it) with the bait ships infront.

I'm really busy, I'll update the front page later.

Jafo · Post by **Jafo** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:44 pm

antisocialmunky wrote:with the bait ships infront.

Well the bait ships engaging first is the only way I have ever seen our fleet lose, not every time, not even often, but the only loses ever. The rest of the fleet layout can probably be flexible.

Due date started yesterday through this Thursday. I am posting my ship in the main thread now as a final version. We don't have much time to submit and I don't see any reason to hold off, as it doesn't look like there are any late submissions underway? To me it looks like the only discussion needed is the fleet layout.

Droid · Post by **Droid** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 pm

Oh, btw, I need to know which version of my ship you're using...
Or does it not really matter?

Jafo · Post by **Jafo** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:21 pm

Droid wrote:Oh, btw, I need to know which version of my ship you're using...
Or does it not really matter?

Yes it matters!

From earlier in this thread.

Jafo wrote:The Witch-Maw Nephilim with Lancets gets my vote for being more consistent and therefore doing more damage over the course of most battles.

(therefore Witch-Maw Nephilim X1)

I never saw any comments from antisocialmunky about his tests and which ship he is using from those that you submitted. Antisocialmunky - input from your testing of all the ships that Droid provided please?

Antisocialmunky - could you provide an encounter file showing the ship layout that you are using, or even just a screenshot? I would like to see what you are using. One advantage of my starting layout - I have tested with the Motherships in various starting locations, and can't find one where EndlessInfinity can place his Mothership to gain an advantage. The ships have a shared defence at the start and during the first minute of the battle. If your layout has an advantage I would love to see how you did it.

antisocialmunky · Post by **antisocialmunky** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:33 pm

Like I said, its busy right now for me. I just don't have time to test anything.

I think that your setup does look good. Mine just had three vertical rows at the left edge of the screen with pulsar ships in the back, bait ships in the front and the mid range ships in the middle. Just three lines.

Jafo · Post by **Jafo** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:56 pm

antisocialmunky wrote:Like I said, its busy right now for me. I just don't have time to test anything.

I think that your setup does look good. Mine just had three vertical rows at the left edge of the screen with pulsar ships in the back, bait ships in the front and the mid range ships in the middle. Just three lines.

I hear you about being busy, just was looking for input of your past testing of Droid's various designs (if you did any) so that he can decide which ship to submit - I wasn't asking for a bout of current testing from you.

My initial reaction to your setup is about the difference in ship speeds - with my closer starting location, the ships are close together as they attack the Mothership, I am concerned (but have not tested) that with your layout the ships will get separated in distance and not engage at the same time (which is how I saw one of the fleets get torn apart by the Mothership in the first tourney). Thanks for the verbal description, gives me something to go on.

Master Chief · Post by **Master Chief** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:18 pm

Guys...just noticed an extremely frightening scenario...

The Mothership could potentially pin some of our ships in a corner, like the one I witnessed shoving Nephilim, Cuddlefish, Sogeki Hei and my ship into a tiny space before BUTCHERING us by tachyon. Damn scary, considering that we won all the other times I ran the encounter. Hope that this doesn't happen in the actual competition, that could affect our scores a great deal if it does.

Jafo · Post by **Jafo** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:57 pm

Master Chief wrote:Guys...just noticed an extremely frightening scenario...

The Mothership could potentially pin some of our ships in a corner, like the one I witnessed shoving Nephilim, Cuddlefish, Sogeki Hei and my ship into a tiny space before BUTCHERING us by tachyon. Damn scary, considering that we won all the other times I ran the encounter. Hope that this doesn't happen in the actual competition, that could affect our scores a great deal if it does.

Yeah, that happens about 1 in about 100-200 simulation runs. Not large enough to fret about. Also, if you are using my encounter files, those were setup using a 4096x4096 sandbox (based on the Mothership1 tourney, as the size for this tourney (5000x5000) had not been announced yet), so it happens even less often now with the expanded size of the sandbox.

My concerns about ship speed being an issue using antisocialmunky's start locations appears to be unfounded. While I only have run a couple of simulations vs. only one type of test Mothership the grouping looks pretty tight (everybody did a great job of keeping ship speeds identical or so close it doesn't matter

). The quick runs also showed me that his setup may have an advantage of making the Mothership turn its back to the rest of the oncoming fleet while it takes its initial shots at the two bait ships. I will make a lot more runs vs. all the test Motherships and post my findings.

TheBlueEcho · Post by **TheBlueEcho** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:06 am

What is The Firefly Initiative?

Droid · Post by **Droid** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:13 am

TheBlueEcho wrote:What is The Firefly Initiative?

Our team name?
Possibly?
Donno.

==
Btw, Jafo, did you test the size-reduced version, or is that one less effective?

antisocialmunky · Post by **antisocialmunky** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:33 am

Jafo wrote:
Master Chief wrote:Guys...just noticed an extremely frightening scenario...

The Mothership could potentially pin some of our ships in a corner, like the one I witnessed shoving Nephilim, Cuddlefish, Sogeki Hei and my ship into a tiny space before BUTCHERING us by tachyon. Damn scary, considering that we won all the other times I ran the encounter. Hope that this doesn't happen in the actual competition, that could affect our scores a great deal if it does.
Yeah, that happens about 1 in about 100-200 simulation runs. Not large enough to fret about. Also, if you are using my encounter files, those were setup using a 4096x4096 sandbox (based on the Mothership1 tourney, as the size for this tourney (5000x5000) had not been announced yet), so it happens even less often now with the expanded size of the sandbox.

My concerns about ship speed being an issue using antisocialmunky's start locations appears to be unfounded. While I only have run a couple of simulations vs. only one type of test Mothership the grouping looks pretty tight (everybody did a great job of keeping ship speeds identical or so close it doesn't matter ). The quick runs also showed me that his setup may have an advantage of making the Mothership turn its back to the rest of the oncoming fleet while it takes its initial shots at the two bait ships. I will make a lot more runs vs. all the test Motherships and post my findings.

We can negate the pinning issue by deploying our fleet centered and towards our edge. That way, unless the mothership carries a negative range dieterling, it should stay relatively in the middle.

The big problem with my setup is that the mothership could be deployed to its side so we risk a higher chance of being pinned(still unlikely) and our ships will be seperated for alot longer.

Tsakara · Post by **Tsakara** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:35 am

it can be if you guys want it. I'm for it.

Jafo · Post by **Jafo** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:42 pm

Droid wrote:Btw, Jafo, did you test the size-reduced version, or is that one less effective?

I, um, that is,

I missed the link. I saw your initial picture of the ship, I saw your take on a distraction cruiser but I somehow missed the text and link for your ship that referenced back to your previously posted picture. Downloaded and checking it out. Only had time for a few runs, but this ship looks like it behaves like your full size X1, shields do their job, and you now do not get picked up and targeted when the Mothership takes one of its wide turns. Unless I find something really drastic over the next day, I would say that your 'midget' version is better due to it being low on the threat radar.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Fast take on the starting positions based on several runs (shortened to Munky & Jafo for ease of reference)

Start location of MS - dead centre across from the fleet except where noted.

Munky vs. flanking AI - better as it usually means the mass of ships get one free shot at the backside of the MS which is distracted by the 2 bait ships. Constant win with 6-7 ships surviving.

Jafo vs. flanking AI - my detailed write up covers this. Constant win with 6-7 ships surviving.

Munky vs. normal AI - don't get that free shot to the backside of the MS. Worse - 30% of fights get to the Sandbox boundary, which is the only location that I have ever seen our fleet lose. Most fights start with 2 bait ships isolated for a long time against the MS. Due to concentrated fire, more damage done to bait ships (very occasional outright destruction of Cuddlefish). Constant wins (so far - the rounds with 3-4 ships left were scary to watch - very close) with 3-6 ships surviving. Boundary fights are 3-5 ships left, non-boundary fights are always 6 ships left.

Jafo - vs. normal AI - entire fleet arrives fairly close - MS does not get lead to the Sandbox boundary. Constant wins with 6 ships surviving.

. . . . . .

I also run a worst case scenario for the starting location for the MS - in a corner as far away as possible and ran it for 5 runs each.

Munky - 1 lose, wins with 4, 5, 6, & 6 ships surviving.
Jafo - wins with 6 ships surviving each run.

My big concern is the MS getting us against the sandbox boundary, and it always seems worst when it is the bait ships far ahead of the rest of the fleet. Interestingly enough, with my start location and the MS in the corner - even though the bait ships arrive first by a good margin, the MS has looked past and has locked onto another ship (either Turtle or Jormungand) so the MS comes further out of the corner than it would otherwise.

QwiceNitely · Post by **QwiceNitely** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:45 am

I think my ship is basically going to stay as it is now barring any major objections, the only thing I can think of is maybe some armament changes (although the gatlings seem to be fairly effective in terms of damage output) and removing the tails on either end to throw more sections into my aegis gap. Either way it's going to be weak to tachyons, but dropping sections into the middle might help it's beamer defense. Either way I think flanking it is the way to go, it's hard to tell because the scaffold covers so much of the rear section of the MS, but from analyzing the picture it looks as though it's going to be pretty tough going hitting it from the front

Jafo · Post by **Jafo** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:27 pm

Today is the last day for submitting ships, EndlessInfinity wants to run the Tourney!

Droid - after many more runs your "midget" version works very well, and due to its low threat profile survives easier. I would suggest you submit that one as your tournament ship.

. . . . . . . ( edit ) . . . . . . . . .

antisocialmunky - any thoughts on starting positions for our fleet? I just tried a combination of your left most position and my layout. That worked out well also. It also has the advantage of pulling a Mothership even more away from the outside walls into the centre if EndlessInfinity starts the MS against a sandbox wall. My only concern with any layout is not letting the two bait ships become the initial target of the MS as that seems to be the only way that we can be beaten.