Team-Based Custom Fleet Tournament (Submission Starts TODAY)

[DarkenShroud]

I still must petition for there to be a cap on how many points one can spend on a single sections hp. 3 points spent on each section's hp max.....! Otherwise that leaves open the possibility of people spending like 10 points (and bet I will if the rule stays the same :twisted: ) on there front sections hp. If ya cap it, then it most certainly will balance things out. Example......- The hp per section for battleships is 150 per point spent. People will just spend 10 points on there front section to make it what 1800 hp OMG thats unbalanced. Keep to the same point system,but limit people to 3 points spent on each sections hp, and they can't get any higher then 750, which is within reason and balanced upon testing. Yes I know I'm repeating myself. Figure in flak taking down alot of the incomings and deflectors/aegis, and you have yourself a stalemate in alot of circumstances or hugely long battles fought against ships with 1000 + HP sections...again OMG Unbalanced for the lack of a better term.

[Sponge]

Great idea. Changing now.

[DarkenShroud]

Sweet deal, one step closer to action packed battles and a better balance.
I think you have about achieved a final version of the rules, why you ask. Cuz I no longer have anything to complain about...Yes I know its a miracle lol.

[TrashMan]

The HP per section is quite smaller than it was...3 points isn't that much.

I propose that a buffed section can't go over 1000 HP (partially cause I already have a ship with a 900HP section..LOL)

Really, section buffing is something everyone can do and there are dozen of ways around it, so it's really not that of a deal breaker to have up to 1000 HP.


Edit - testing of my new ship against the Mothersip tournament ships (spawned one after another, without repairing my ship) - 2 destroyed without a section lost..
3rd one had 4 Mega Tachs and 8 deflectors..that one finished him, but got a lot of damage in the process :twisted:

[DarkenShroud]

I suppose a limit of 4 increases could be all good to, upto Sponge. I wouldn't be against it.

[Admiral Evars]

It's just that the classes really are not balanced at all - in particular, the corvette seems so overpowered.

This ship

Zealot Corvette:
Sections: 8 - 24 Points
Speed: 3.3 - 30 Points
Turning: 3.3 - 30 Points
Accel: .48 - 12 Points

Pulse Guns: 28 - 28 Points

Deflectors: 2 - 20 Points
Point Beams: 12 - 36 Points
Impeders: 2 - 20 Points
Thrusters (Decorative): 4 - 0 Points

beats the crap out of any battleship or frigate I make, because pulses are so cheap. If there is a fairly simple way to defeat these types of ships with a frigate or battleship, by all means please tell me.

There are two main things wrong with the class system:
1) All ships, even of different classes, are considered equal in value. That is , if one player submits a corvette, and the other submits a battleship, the corvette is expected to be able to (if designed well) to take on the battleship and win. Now, in some situations this is possible if the corvette exploits a particular weakness in the B-ship, but by and large one would expect corvettes to need a numerical advantage to take a B-ship, and would expect them to take losses even so. Making B-ship and Corvettes equal means hugely bending the point system toward the corvette. Even so, if a ship has 50 guns, shields, and point defenses, it hardly qualifies as a corvette now does it? A corvette is then just a faster battleship.
2) There are different pricing systems for different craft. This makes it at least 9 times harder to balance, because everything has to be balanced between the systems as well as within the system. As it stands, I think the system is unbalanced in favor of the corvettes. Even once (if) you address this, there are probably more imbalances we just haven't caught on to yet. Ideally, there is one point system, and the differences between the classes is reflected in the number of points used to make them.

[Admiral Evars]

It's just that the classes really are not balanced at all - in particular, the corvette seems so overpowered.

This ship

Zealot Corvette:
Sections: 8 - 24 Points
Speed: 3.3 - 30 Points
Turning: 3.3 - 30 Points
Accel: .48 - 12 Points

Pulse Guns: 28 - 28 Points

Deflectors: 2 - 20 Points
Point Beams: 12 - 36 Points
Impeders: 2 - 20 Points
Thrusters (Decorative): 4 - 0 Points

beats the crap out of any battleship or frigate I make, because pulses are so cheap. If there is a fairly simple way to defeat these types of ships with a frigate or battleship, by all means please tell me.

There are two main things wrong with the class system:
1) All ships, even of different classes, are considered equal in value. That is , if one player submits a corvette, and the other submits a battleship, the corvette is expected to be able to (if designed well) to take on the battleship and win. Now, in some situations this is possible if the corvette exploits a particular weakness in the B-ship, but by and large one would expect corvettes to need a numerical advantage to take a B-ship, and would expect them to take losses even so. Making B-ship and Corvettes equal means hugely bending the point system toward the corvette. Even so, if a ship has 50 guns, shields, and point defenses, it hardly qualifies as a corvette now does it? A corvette is then just a faster battleship.
2) There are different pricing systems for different craft. This makes it at least 9 times harder to balance, because everything has to be balanced between the systems as well as within the system. As it stands, I think the system is unbalanced in favor of the corvettes. Even once (if) you address this, there are probably more imbalances we just haven't caught on to yet. Ideally, there is one point system, and the differences between the classes is reflected in the number of points used to make them.

[derekiv]

IMHO, fabricators (both of them) should be dissalowed.

they are cheaper than aegis whoring, since against aeigises you can at least do SOMETHING (fast flankers, plasma, weasels).
Against platfrom-AI bug, you can't do anything.


That said, my first 200 point ship is ready...and it's a tough SOB.

Some how, my original ship in the One Up battle thread igmored platform spam. Not sure if it does in the new version of BSF.

[DarkenShroud]

I just pmed ya man to discuss strategy, I could tell ya the answer to your question right now. But why share knowledge with the enemy. Don't worry about corvettes, theres ways of taking down smaller faster ships. Wish to discuss strategy with a teammate lol feel free to pm me back......to perhaps exchange ship ideas and thoughts :twisted:

It's just that the classes really are not balanced at all - in particular, the corvette seems so overpowered.

They do get alot of stats, but not unbeatable.

[TrashMan]

Admiral Evars, if I'm getting this right, you're proposing same weapons costs for all calsses, but Cruisers and frigates get to spend less points total?

Like:
Battleship - up to 200 points
Cruiser - up to 150 points
Frigate - up to 100 points

Not bad. Makes sense really.. bigger ship = more expensive, and thus more powerful. If not, who would build bigger ships at all?

[DarkenShroud]

Naw a 200 point corvette isn't really all that scary. But I do believe the points are abit high, maybe just up them slightly if need be. Making ships that aren't battleships cost less then 200 points is going alittle to far.

[Sponge]

There are two main things wrong with the class system:
1) All ships, even of different classes, are considered equal in value. That is , if one player submits a corvette, and the other submits a battleship, the corvette is expected to be able to (if designed well) to take on the battleship and win. Now, in some situations this is possible if the corvette exploits a particular weakness in the B-ship, but by and large one would expect corvettes to need a numerical advantage to take a B-ship, and would expect them to take losses even so. Making B-ship and Corvettes equal means hugely bending the point system toward the corvette. Even so, if a ship has 50 guns, shields, and point defenses, it hardly qualifies as a corvette now does it? A corvette is then just a faster battleship.
2) There are different pricing systems for different craft. This makes it at least 9 times harder to balance, because everything has to be balanced between the systems as well as within the system. As it stands, I think the system is unbalanced in favor of the corvettes. Even once (if) you address this, there are probably more imbalances we just haven't caught on to yet. Ideally, there is one point system, and the differences between the classes is reflected in the number of points used to make them.

First and foremost, I am going to increase the pulse price to two for the corvette. It was a poor idea on my part to give them pulse guns for so cheap.

1) This is what I was trying to get around by pricing weapons differently for ships. A corvette is at a severe disadvantage when it comes to buying heavy weapons, and the reverse is true for battleships. This, and stat costs are the differences between classes. I do not believe that you could make a battleship out of a corvette.
2) I agree- it makes it MUCH harder to balance. To attempt to counteract that, I started with a system that was balanced to begin with (from the voting thread) and worked up from there. I'm also pretty much begging for suggestions . I'll raise the price for pulse guns on corvettes, and we'll see if any other imbalances pop up in the future. Finally, I disagree with your ideal system. The idea is for all ships to be able to beat any other class if they are designed better- not simply innately better. If I understand you right, you think we should have one point system, and battleships should get more points to spend that corvettes. This means that corvettes are at a severe disadvantage to begin with, and as such they would never be used. In a fleet situation, however, I see this as the best way of running a point system. When you only have one ship to build, however, it just wouldn't work.

The HP per section is quite smaller than it was...3 points isn't that much.

Four points it is, then. Changed! So long as you have a battleship, that makes your 900 point segment legal.

[Jafo]

*A voice is heard in Sponge's head* "Allow weapons to touch"

If not all good, but it would help matters in more then one way.

And really wouldn't be hurting anything, exactly the opposite actually.

(More weapons can fit on a frigate design, weapons will be more effective, better accuracy, better looking, etc)

*The voice seems to leave without a trace of its passing*

Haha... The reason I added the no-touch was because Mr Wizard cited the absence of a limit on weapons per section as a large contributor to his dropping out. Again, there seem to be two opposite schools of thought on this subject. I'll see what others say.

Let 'em touch, please let them touch or I will have to make even more changes to the ship that I have completed for this.

[Jafo]

It's just that the classes really are not balanced at all - in particular, the corvette seems so overpowered.

This ship

Zealot Corvette:
Sections: 8 - 24 Points
Speed: 3.3 - 30 Points
Turning: 3.3 - 30 Points
Accel: .48 - 12 Points

Pulse Guns: 28 - 28 Points

Deflectors: 2 - 20 Points
Point Beams: 12 - 36 Points
Impeders: 2 - 20 Points
Thrusters (Decorative): 4 - 0 Points

beats the crap out of any battleship or frigate I make, because pulses are so cheap. If there is a fairly simple way to defeat these types of ships with a frigate or battleship, by all means please tell me.

Sorry, but I am not going to give away the design of my ship . I just ran 4 of your Corvettes vs. 4 of my ship design for this tourney on a 2500x2500 sandbox. Result, all 4 of your ships destroyed. My ships - 2 completely intact, 1 minor damage, 1 down to core.

2nd run - your Corvettes took 3 of my ships down right away, my last ship then took 3 of your ships down, and then the last ships stalemated.

3rd run - all your corvettes down, I had 1 intact and 1 core (this one might have been different if you didn't have the thrusters on your ship).

Then I remembered you had included the SB3 file - removed the thrusters - result: all 4 of your ships dead, 3 of mine completely intact.

So, no, I don't think your pulse gun corvette is overpowered at all. It is a good strong design, and the sandbox runs could go one way or another but it is quite easily matchable.

By the way, don't use thrusters on a tournament ship, the loss of a thruster lowers your speed by .01 & lowers acceleration by .02 (unless that is what you actually want ).

[Iron Ham]

It's just that the classes really are not balanced at all - in particular, the corvette seems so overpowered.

This ship

Zealot Corvette:
Sections: 8 - 24 Points
Speed: 3.3 - 30 Points
Turning: 3.3 - 30 Points
Accel: .48 - 12 Points

Pulse Guns: 28 - 28 Points

Deflectors: 2 - 20 Points
Point Beams: 12 - 36 Points
Impeders: 2 - 20 Points
Thrusters (Decorative): 4 - 0 Points

beats the crap out of any battleship or frigate I make, because pulses are so cheap. If there is a fairly simple way to defeat these types of ships with a frigate or battleship, by all means please tell me.

Sorry, but I am not going to give away the design of my ship . I just ran 4 of your Corvettes vs. 4 of my ship design for this tourney on a 2500x2500 sandbox. Result, all 4 of your ships destroyed. My ships - 2 completely intact, 1 minor damage, 1 down to core.

2nd run - your Corvettes took 3 of my ships down right away, my last ship then took 3 of your ships down, and then the last ships stalemated.

3rd run - all your corvettes down, I had 1 intact and 1 core (this one might have been different if you didn't have the thrusters on your ship).

Then I remembered you had included the SB3 file - removed the thrusters - result: all 4 of your ships dead, 3 of mine completely intact.

So, no, I don't think your pulse gun corvette is overpowered at all. It is a good strong design, and the sandbox runs could go one way or another but it is quite easily matchable.

By the way, don't use thrusters on a tournament ship, the loss of a thruster lowers your speed by .01 & lowers acceleration by .02 (unless that is what you actually want ).

Actually, in the newest Shipbuilder you can modify the amount lost for each thruster. So cosmetic thrusters are a possibility.

Plus, it's fun to have fighters slow to a crawl after you kill their thrusters... (just set the numbers high)