3rd Custom Ships Fleet Tournament Voting Thread [Updated]

Anarki · Post by **Anarki** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:54 pm

How is it not naturalistic?

Seems logical - you want more then the limit, then pay extra.

goduranus · Post by **goduranus** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:56 pm

If there are no increments under the limit, then I'm fine with that.

TrashMan · Post by **TrashMan** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:59 pm

Thing is, the increase must not cost too much or it will be worthless.

I'd say no extra points for 0-135°
+1 point for 220°

that way you got a choice - more guns, or fewer guns with better arcs.

For those who say ti makes flankers less viable - rubbish. Flankers have been overpowered in the previous tournaments already.
I've done some testing and a fast flanker can dodge most weapon shots, even with 220° weapon arcs.
Instead of complaining, build a better ship.

EDIT: Platfrom Fabricators should be banned.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:21 pm

135 max is good, otherwise flankers are kinda worthless in alot of circumstances. You'd have to charge major points if any change beyond that is allowed. Keep it the way it is, its both balanced and flexible. Giving the option to extend beyond 135 is just not such a good idea in general no matter how many points you have to spend. Balance is the issue here in my opinon, not how many points can I spend to make my ship unbalanced. No offense please to those who feel otherwise.

TrashMan · Post by **TrashMan** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:31 am

How is it unbalanced? Explain it to me please.
Have you done any testing at all?

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:32 am

Actually yes I have, I've been using 180 degrees with most of my weapons since starting to build custom ships. Based off the point system on these forums custom tourney. Flanking ships get smacked down due to weapon facings at that level. Trying the new 135 limit, weapons don't have even half the chance to hit flankers as they do at 180 degrees. Weapons beyond 135 facing start to become unbalanced and flanker killers with every degree beyond that point. So I'd call that unbalanced when it comes to a tourney format, and starts to defeat the purpose of building a flanking ship. I'm sure I can explain this in more detail if ya like, but I don't really think thats nessacary. Its a easy concept to understand, the more you extend your weapon arc, the easier and more likely you are to hit ships in general, making your ship unbalanced when it comes to tourney usage.

Mr_Wizard · Post by **Mr_Wizard** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:18 am

I propose that now that Missiles can circle around and hit enemies well outside their original arc, that they be bumped up to 2 points a weapon.

My reasoning:

Mr_Wizard wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:They're still super super easy to intercept though.
So are blasters, but they don't have the range, damage, accuracy, or brand new 360° equivalent firing arc. Also, it can attack flanks, like the (2 point!) Sidewinder. With enough of them you can over come all but the most turtled up ships. It gains that 360° threat zone while still having plenty of points left over to make it as speedy as a cruiser. I am fine with massing Missiles, its the fact that I don't have to sacrifice too much speed and manueverability to get it that I have a problem with, while the other team has to devote a lot to defence (Very expensive defence, which makes them slower or have fewer weapons) Bumping it up to 2 points won't be totally debilitating to missiles if your ship is still focusing entirely on them.

Just compare a fleet of 3 "1 point Missile" Manyara's: http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... ._IIIa.shp

To a fleet of 3 "2 point Missile" Manyara's:
http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... ._IIIb.shp

Or just look at Trashmans Excellent and aptly named Hail to the King: http://www.wyrdysm.com/battleshipsforev ... e_King.shp
(which is a better missile barge than the Manyara, even though it doesn't take advantage of the new 3 per section rule <.<)

They are still battlewagons, but the high amount of missiles slows them down, as it would with mass sidewinders or blasters.

CmdPrompt · Post by **CmdPrompt** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:28 am

Yeah, that seems reasonable. I hadn't realized the change til I played out the AtM matches, its really quite useful.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:34 am

Missles get shot down very easily, and move slow. 5-7(thats 10-14 points) flak guns can almost expell all the missles incoming from a hail to the king(28-32 points I forget how many missles it has) , and in return destroy her while doing so. Missles aren't all that great unless you spend all of your points practically on them and thats at 1 per Missile. Plus you'd have to have enough sections to support them all, and then add in deflectors yadda yadda. Missles aren't all that great to warrant being at a cost of 2. Making them 2 gives people yet another reason not to use them at all and dooms them to the weapon graveyard for eternity lol. To finish off this thought, anything with a halfway decent defense can destroy a Missile carrier(or at least knock down most if not all of her missles).

They're still super super easy to intercept though.

Tormak quote and a accurate one.

Mr_Wizard · Post by **Mr_Wizard** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:38 pm

That great in 1 v1 engagements, but in fleets, the amount of about a missile barge generates increases, where as the comparatively fewer flaks. Flanking doesn't matter to a barge that can fire in all directions, and if its fast enough, it can keep its forward armor facing the really dangerous foes or flankers.

And what about the smaller ships that can't stad up to that large of a barrage. Their only recourse is out-flank(against a 360° equivalent arc) or stay out of range (Of one of the longest ranged weapons in game).

Considering how good it is against smaller classes that aren't specifically designed to handle a barrage like that one, I think that alone is enough to earn it a 2 point weapon classification.

Water_and_Wind · Post by **Water_and_Wind** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:41 pm

Missiles have the most pathetic DPS in the game. They make REPEATER GUNS look powerful, and factoring in their extreme interceptability they... suck. Blasters have a fast firing rate and decently high speed bullets while sidewinders fire lots of projectiles to avoid being intercepted. Well, missiles have their advantages and at 1 point they are a feasible choice given their good range and terrible damage.

EDIT: don't even smaller ships have some kind of PD?

Mr_Wizard · Post by **Mr_Wizard** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:56 pm

Yes, but even just a few missiles getting through can destroy a deflectored section of a frigate.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:58 pm

Been testing out fleet ideas the past few hours, flak knocks down the majority of missles even when hail to the king is used in threes. Missles are indeed pathetic lol, so 1 vs 1 or in fleet use missles are knocked out by proper flak usage. You don't even have to spend half the points in flak you do missles to get the results I speak of. Missles should definetly stay at one. Slow, easy to pick off, dps is pathetic, and you need to spend 30 points or more just to make them effective to some degree at one point per Missile. Why make them 2 points, then you'd make them totally worthless, right now there barely usable as it is.

Yes, but even just a few missiles getting through can destroy a deflectored section of a frigate

Then spend a few points to beef them up. Flak + a few points spent on section beef up and Missile effectiveness is nil even at one point per Missile.

Mr_Wizard · Post by **Mr_Wizard** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:05 pm

The frigate in question has a nano, an impeder, and 4 pd turrets, and 2 deflectors. All placed so that they are the last things to go in a fight. Against Battleships they are all the things you guys have said, if your fleet is more varied, you're screwed. May as well build not but battleships then.

DarkenShroud · Post by **DarkenShroud** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:13 pm

Thats the point of the fleet tourney, build against everything. Find the best balance you can against everything out there with the system you have available. Changing the Missile price to 2 and making them worthless is not in the best interest to the rules I think lol in my opinon. Then you'd have to spend 60 points just to make them halfway effective

The rules are fine the way they stand and the points. Good, balanced, effective, easy to manage, all in all well thought out and discussed. I really enjoy the way it stands at this point.

The frigate in question has a nano, an impeder, and 4 pd turrets, and 2 deflectors. All placed so that they are the last things to go in a fight. Against Battleships they are all the things you guys have said, if your fleet is more varied, you're screwed. May as well build not but battleships then.

Should have spent more points on section hp, the friagte may have won out then. If your fleet is varied in the right way, then you are not screwed you are superior.

Missiles have the most pathetic DPS in the game. They make REPEATER GUNS look powerful