a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

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vidboi
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a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by vidboi »

i was thining about to implement strategic warfare in the metagame between human factions and keep it fun for all. my main concern is that players who are losing under attack will become disatisfied by the situation and will lose the will to continue which would end in disaster for the meta. my main thought is what happens when a faction is conquered; will the faction's players have to leave, or - as i am going to suggest - be able to continue playing in the game.

my idea is that a conquered (or surrendered) faction can become a vassal state. by this i mean that it continues to function mainly independently, however all its technological research will be passed onto the ruling faction, and the ruling faction will also be able to indirectly control the vassal faction if neccesary (for example in a time of war). this allows the faction and its players to continue playing as before, however also gives an advantage to the conqueror.

any thoughts on this, or a different proposal?
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Corporal Jomn »

That's a great idea. Maybe limit the actions of the vassal state, and all the actions have to go through the conquerer.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Maart3n »

Corporal Jomn wrote:That's a great idea. Maybe limit the actions of the vassal state, and all the actions have to go through the conquerer.
Agreed on the great idea, but I would that the vassal could still do quite a lot on his own. BUT if the conqueror orders them to do something they have to do that instead. So you could just wage war and construct ships, but if the conqueror orders you to attack that planet with those ships, you do that instead.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Verminator »

This sounds like the sort of thing that could be handled with a little asic diplomacy anyway. Besides, a conquering faction is more likely to want to wipe an opposing faction out entirely and take their conquered planets for themselves rather than have an untrustworthy ally who'll likely just betray them as soon as they get a chance. It's all well and good saying the vanquished has to do what the conquered says, but that sounds like less fun than a total defeat - you're doing someone else's work for them. That wouldn't sit well with anyone.

What I'm saying is that what happens to a defeated player should be entirely at the discretion of the victor. A defeat should be a defeat.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Silverware »

Vassals could be instead a diplomatic thing for smaller factions to gain the protection of larger ones.
giving a portion of their income, determined at the start of the vassalage, usually as a percentage, and in return the master faction protects the vassal, and the vassal lends their ships to combat operations led by the master faction.

Something that benefits both sides, as the master faction gains additional income without having to take the hits to their ships that would result from destroying the other faction, and the smaller faction gains an protector and ally.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Arcalane »

Verminator wrote:This sounds like the sort of thing that could be handled with a little asic diplomacy anyway. Besides, a conquering faction is more likely to want to wipe an opposing faction out entirely and take their conquered planets for themselves rather than have an untrustworthy ally who'll likely just betray them as soon as they get a chance. It's all well and good saying the vanquished has to do what the conquered says, but that sounds like less fun than a total defeat - you're doing someone else's work for them. That wouldn't sit well with anyone.

What I'm saying is that what happens to a defeated player should be entirely at the discretion of the victor. A defeat should be a defeat.
Verm summed it up better than I could.

Sparing someone in exchange for them becoming your vassal should be entirely up to you. No "oh no you can't kill off a faction" pseudo-PC bullshit. You could try and recruit their officers to your side if you want, but again, that's up to you.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Maart3n »

But then what should happen to the loser, give them a new planet? Wipe 'em out?
Not that I disagree with verminators point, but still, kinda sucks for the first guy to get wiped out and to have to quit the game.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Rugdumph »

Maybe, again depending on discretion of the victor, if some part of the losing faction escaped as refugees, taking the main profile of a refugee faction with lesser versions of their original faction traits, then the victor could either chase them down or let them go. The refugees could try and find an unconquered planet, or try to get protection by a former ally, since among everything else a group of refugees would be a target for pirates too. This way survival of the faction is still not guaranteed, and most likely will still get wiped out, but if they're lucky, i.e. near an allied base/fleet, or whatever else may benefit them then they have a slim chance of surviving, but will have to start up again from the bottom, except depending on the content of the refugees maybe they escape with more resources or with more technology knowledge or etc.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Arcalane »

Maart3n wrote:But then what should happen to the loser, give them a new planet? Wipe 'em out?
If they had an ally willing to help them, then a government in exile situation might be possible. However, physically evacuating and escorting your government to safety would have to be done ingame - no magical teleportation of officers like Meta1. This ties into what Rugdumph is saying. Otherwise, if you get wiped out, you're wiped out.

There should be a chance, though, that a faction can return in some form if it's old worlds rebel successfully. In that case, the option would be open for a new faction (potentially) with the old faction leader getting 'first dibs' on the position.

A bit like RevDCM for Civilization 4: Beyond the Sword.
Maart3n wrote:Not that I disagree with verminators point, but still, kinda sucks for the first guy to get wiped out and to have to quit the game.
Shit happens in wartime. You lost - there will always be losers.

Anyone thinking that a faction should not be allowed to be wiped out needs to stop whining. I have to put up with enough of this 'I don't like losing!' bullshit whilst administrating TF2 servers, because some people don't understand that there has to be a winner and a loser.
Rugdumph wrote:Maybe, again depending on discretion of the victor, if some part of the losing faction escaped as refugees, taking the main profile of a refugee faction with lesser versions of their original faction traits, then the victor could either chase them down or let them go. The refugees could try and find an unconquered planet, or try to get protection by a former ally, since among everything else a group of refugees would be a target for pirates too. This way survival of the faction is still not guaranteed, and most likely will still get wiped out, but if they're lucky, i.e. near an allied base/fleet, or whatever else may benefit them then they have a slim chance of surviving, but will have to start up again from the bottom, except depending on the content of the refugees maybe they escape with more resources or with more technology knowledge or etc.
That's entirely up to the defender, IMO. If they want to take a fleet and their treasury and make a run for it, abandoning their people to the enemy, that's up to them. It's an option that's open to those smart enough and with the will to go that far, but not something you get for free.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Long story short; the option to not get your faction flattened will be there, but it is up to you to take the necessary steps to avoid that, be it diplomacy, becoming a vassal, fleeing to an ally for sanctuary, and so on and so forth. There will not be safety nets for those who are unwilling or too stupid to take those steps themselves.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by vidboi »

yes, i suppose it would be neccesary to make it so that the conquered nation actually has to act diplomatically to stop themselves being completely destroyed, this would also have the effect of sorting out whether the players wanted to continue or not.

my main aim with this system was to prevent a single faction becoming too large. if this was the case then they could win the game easily merely because they could defeat any other faction through attrition. with the system being arranged for the meta 2 i think this would be an injustice to the work put into it. the meta should be won by the greater skill of one faction over the others, not through their size alone.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Arcalane »

vidboi wrote:my main aim with this system was to prevent a single faction becoming too large.
So instead you make their crushed enemies into a vassal state that the master controls almost absolutely. That doesn't solve much, and merely throws people into a weak and circular game of denial and passive aggression.
vidboi wrote:if this was the case then they could win the game easily merely because they could defeat any other faction through attrition.


I am already considering methods to counteract this, namely fleet HQs having a limit on the number of fleets and ships they can co-ordinate and supply support for.

A large empire has other things to consider as well; it's own internal security for example, if it has several high-ranking officers who feel neglected. What if one of them jealously eyes the keys to power, and enacts a scheme to seize control, potentially throwing the entire faction into civil war?
vidboi wrote:with the system being arranged for the meta 2 i think this would be an injustice to the work put into it.
Yet, if the other players are foolish enough to allow one player to grow too powerful, is that not, in some part, their fault? The largest player is not doing anything wrong - and fair play rules will merely hamper people's experience in the long run.

Or in other words, I refuse to arbitrarily penalize people in the name of 'fair play' if they are otherwise doing everything within the bounds of the rules. If they start to toe the rules or try to push their luck, however...
vidboi wrote:the meta should be won by the greater skill of one faction over the others, not through their size alone.
You expect too much of the average Wyrdysmite -- as do I, unfortunately. Maintaining control of captured worlds may prove difficult if their Morale was high prior to capture. Especially so if they are Fanatical types, or such.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by vidboi »

hmmm... my idea was to keep the vassal state mainly independent, just with the research, and if needed military bonus to the commanding state. i suppose expanding a faction too much could lead to too much bureaucracy and too much work to control. limited the ships imo wouldn't really help too much against larger factions merely becuse by attrition i was thinking more of the factions ability to produce and replace ships.

i'm also against penalizing people not for there own actions, this is a suggestion to prevent that from ever being required in any way. my concern was that through situation and/or luck one faction could quickly become the most powerful and subsequently retain that position

and personally i wasn;t expecting the leaders of the faction to merely be average players, but more the experienced members who would take it seriously. prior opinions/grudges could make inter-faction diplomacy very interesting...
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Bad Boy »

If one faction becomes the most powerful through conquering, then what's to stop the other factions ganging up on it to knock it back down to size? If there is a fleet limit, then this would work perfectly; the smaller factions would have (or be able to have) far greater numbers, which would counteract the quick output. In the end, speedy rebuilding is no match for a fleet ten times your size, because by the time you've rebuilt, you'll have lost a fair few systems.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Arcalane »

Bad Boy wrote:If one faction becomes the most powerful through conquering, then what's to stop the other factions ganging up on it to knock it back down to size? If there is a fleet limit, then this would work perfectly; the smaller factions would have (or be able to have) far greater numbers, which would counteract the quick output. In the end, speedy rebuilding is no match for a fleet ten times your size, because by the time you've rebuilt, you'll have lost a fair few systems.
It will be possible to increase the limit by building additional Fleet Command Centers and upgrading them, for all sides.

Ed: Building new ones will not be easy. But possible!

The main thing is the bigger empire would probably end up fighting on multiple fronts, and may not have the capability to support number of fleets required to fight on all fronts.
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Re: a conquered faction - acts as a vassal?

Post by Preacher »

if a faction is annihilated maybe the losing player could be assimilated into the victors side as an officer taking orders from the victor this way they can keep playing but they have still lost, i agree that if you lose its your fault and thats that but this may be a way for defeated players to keep playing, this would be useful for factions fighting on multiple fronts as the victor could give control of one front to the losing player, but the losing player must stay loyal to the victor,

this takes away alot of the losing players freedom but i think most people would be willing to sacrifice that in order to carry on playing.
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