Sensors and Intelligence Gathering

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Arcalane
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Sensors and Intelligence Gathering

Post by Arcalane »

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[Sun 02] [04:53:57] <~Arcalane> oooh! an idea!
[Sun 02] [04:54:00] <~Arcalane> AN IDEA FOR INTEL!
[Sun 02] [04:54:15] <~Arcalane> each planet generates a kind of scanner-obscuring cloud
[Sun 02] [04:54:32] <~Arcalane> (this is if we go with the "fleets can only hang out at major stellar objects")
[Sun 02] [04:54:48] <~Arcalane> better sensors have a better chance of seeing through this "cloud" and picking out details on the ships within
[Sun 02] [04:57:53] <~Arcalane> big planets with violent atmospheres like gas giants generate a lot of 'noise', whilst peaceful planets generate less. inhabited planets generate additional noise from civilian traffic making it harder to pick out warships.
Practically everywhere generates some level of background noise, even lanespace nodes!

Ed:

More discussion;

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[Sun 02] [05:36:39] <%Squishy> As for the explanation for the necessity of sensors when scanning locations, i think that is a plausible explanation
[Sun 02] [05:37:44] <%Squishy> To be specific, are we using 'noise' generated by whatever ubiquous technologies or some magical cloud?
[Sun 02] [05:43:14] <~Arcalane> 'noise' is a rough term for anything that would impede the functioning of sensors, be it upper-atmosphere superscale weather conditions in a gas giant, solar radiation from a star, or civilian shipping in orbit of an inhabited planet
[Sun 02] [05:43:31] <~Arcalane> asteroids in an asteroid belt, etc. etc.
[Sun 02] [05:44:52] <~Arcalane> it also encompasses active jamming such as provided by AWACS ships operating jamming suites, or per-ship stealth abilities
[Sun 02] [05:48:01] <%Squishy> Hmm, alright. As long as we have the concept for it, we'll have no problem quickly coming up with specifics once everything falls into place.
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Arcalane
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Re: Sensors and Intelligence Gathering

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[Wed 05] [19:09:15] <~Arcalane> HorseMonster: RE Sensor Mechanics: Sensor Modules have a sensor strength, sensor strength checks vs noise to reveal ships. Result determines whether a ship is detected (if at all) and to what degree.
[Wed 05] [19:09:29] <~Arcalane> roll for each ship in a fleet
[Wed 05] [19:09:58] <Verminator> Sounds like a pretty decent idea, so long as we can automate it fairly easily.
[Wed 05] [19:10:32] <~Arcalane> well I had Kae talking to me about makin' some apps for the meta, so it's quite feasible
[Wed 05] [19:11:06] <Verminator> Sounds like a simple sort of thing to make.
[Wed 05] [19:11:57] <Krakistotle> Comms: 'captain it looks like a lone carrier'  Captain: 'what luck, commence attack!' Pilot: 'Holy shit it's a whole battalion!'
[Wed 05] [19:12:11] <~Arcalane> that could feasibly happen if you megabotch the rolls
[Wed 05] [19:12:28] <~Arcalane> but it's more likely you'd get one or two solid readings, some pretty clear ones, and lots of vague ones
[Wed 05] [19:12:47] <~Arcalane> orrrr if it's really high noise and you have shittyass sensors AND they have stealth
[Wed 05] [19:13:09] <Krakistotle> Stellar Camofluage!
[Wed 05] [19:13:16] <Verminator> I guess you'd need to roll to a) determine if there's a fleet there to start and b) how many and what kind of ships they have
[Wed 05] [19:13:28] <~Arcalane> something like that
[Wed 05] [19:14:04] <Krakistotle> Yeah we can totally decide how it works without player input, all they need to worry about is the strength of their sensor / stealth tech.
[Wed 05] [19:14:14] <~Arcalane> 'xactly
[Wed 05] [19:14:22] <Verminator> Sounds good.
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Re: Sensors and Intelligence Gathering

Post by Arcalane »

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[Thu 06] [21:11:06] <HorseMonster> So, about those sensors.
[Thu 06] [21:12:21] <HorseMonster> How about instead of the thing you want to do we do something else.
[Thu 06] [21:14:15] <Squishy> Sure, what do ya suggest?
[Thu 06] [21:16:03] <HorseMonster> Well, what Arc proposed was rolling against a Noise value.
[Thu 06] [21:16:36] <Squishy> Oh, getting down to specifics? What mechanism do you have in mind?
[Thu 06] [21:16:37] <HorseMonster> Which would assumedly work out as Dice roll + Sensor strength value Vs. Noise value.
[Thu 06] [21:17:02] <HorseMonster> I think that a D100 roll versus sensor strength modified by Noise would be better.
[Thu 06] [21:18:18] <HorseMonster> So sensor strength would represent a percentile chance to detect an object, and would be affected with a percentile modifier from noise and you could also apply percentile modifiers for otherstuff.
[Thu 06] [21:18:21] <HorseMonster> Like ship movement.
[Thu 06] [21:18:59] <Squishy> lower noise = lower chance to detect
[Thu 06] [21:19:16] <Squishy> are you sure that makes logical sense?
[Thu 06] [21:19:24] <HorseMonster> Uuuh, what?
[Thu 06] [21:19:53] <Squishy> oh nvm
[Thu 06] [21:19:56] <HorseMonster> I don't think you know how you test against percentile values...
[Thu 06] [21:19:57] <Squishy> damn bedmas
[Thu 06] [21:20:35] <HorseMonster> So you try and roll under your sensor strength.
[Thu 06] [21:20:52] <Squishy> This system means a certain high enough sensor strength will always defeat a particular noise value amount.
[Thu 06] [21:21:28] <HorseMonster> Typically game systems that use this kind of mechanic have an auto-fail range of values.
[Thu 06] [21:21:35] <HorseMonster> Normally 96-100
[Thu 06] [21:22:32] <Squishy> give me a couple exampls
[Thu 06] [21:22:36] <HorseMonster> So there's always a 5% chance of failure.
[Thu 06] [21:24:00] <Squishy> Or rather, if sensor strength = noise value, what are the chances of success?
[Thu 06] [21:24:57] <HorseMonster> Again, you have a 5% auto-success value at the start of the range.
[Thu 06] [21:25:35] <HorseMonster> critical success/failure stuff.
[Thu 06] [21:25:52] <Squishy> so that leaves a range of 90 to fit in
[Thu 06] [21:27:09] <Verminator> Just posted possible mechanics for planet conquest. Check it out in the treehouse.
[Thu 06] [21:27:29] <Squishy> I'll looksie when i get home
[Thu 06] [21:28:00] <Verminator> Whenever. I think I've got a good foundation going on.
[Thu 06] [21:28:19] <Verminator> Requires an app to randomise damage to units though.
[Thu 06] [21:28:55] <Squishy> hey horse, are you proposing that the d100 roll is added to by sensor strength and reduced by noise?
[Thu 06] [21:29:23] <Squishy> so take whatever you get from d100, + sensor strength, - noise, then apply result?
[Thu 06] [21:29:33] <HorseMonster> No and yess.
[Thu 06] [21:29:47] <Squishy> yeah, gimme examples.
[Thu 06] [21:30:30] <HorseMonster> The You'd be trying to roll under your sensor strength on d100 to detect something.
[Thu 06] [21:31:12] <HorseMonster> Okay, so you have a sensor strength of 90.
[Thu 06] [21:31:34] <Squishy> oh right, i always mix my positive/negative values.
[Thu 06] [21:32:04] <HorseMonster> You are trying to detect something in orbit of a large gas giant that has a strong magnetic field and big radiation belts giving it a noise penalty of 40.
[Thu 06] [21:32:53] <HorseMonster> On the D100 roll you are trying to roll less than your sensor strength - the noise penalty.
[Thu 06] [21:33:13] <HorseMonster> So you need a roll of less than 50.
[Thu 06] [21:33:24] <HorseMonster> Well, 50 or less.
[Thu 06] [21:34:02] <Squishy> That clears things up much better.
[Thu 06] [21:34:09] <HorseMonster> And you do it that way rather than adding the noise penalty to the d100 roll because that fucks up crits.
[Thu 06] [21:34:34] <Squishy> We never anticipated 'criticals' for sensor technology, but that's okay too.
[Thu 06] [21:34:49] <Verminator> That all sounds really good.
[Thu 06] [21:35:04] <HorseMonster> It's not really a critical, it's just a flukish success.
[Thu 06] [21:35:44] * HorseMonster is now known as HorseMonster
[Thu 06] [21:35:58] <Squishy> IE coincidental timing of sweep with sudden clearance of sensor blocking elements with position of target = we see you loud and clear.
[Thu 06] [21:36:54] <HorseMonster> That sort of thing.
[Thu 06] [21:37:06] <Verminator> We read you.
[Thu 06] [21:37:35] <HorseMonster> And because the thing is based on a d100 roll the entire business is effectively percentile, which makes it simple to come up with bonuses and penalties for various gubbins.
[Thu 06] [21:37:56] <Squishy> Put it up on the metadev for the sensor mechanics
[Thu 06] [21:38:03] * Verminator is now known as Verminator
[Thu 06] [21:39:32] <HorseMonster> Will do.
[Thu 06] [21:44:29] <HorseMonster> Fleets are still an issue though.
[Thu 06] [21:44:30] <Squishy> Verm I am leaning toward severely reducing the variety and selection of army force unit types unless there is a way to allow unique advantages out of particular army unit type mixtures.
[Thu 06] [21:44:50] <Verminator> Hmmm.
[Thu 06] [21:45:13] <Squishy> Actual battle, however, seems to look like it will require little changing for now.
[Thu 06] [21:45:23] <Squishy> It works and makes sense.
[Thu 06] [21:45:40] <HorseMonster> If you have multiple ships all scanning the same region they're each going to be rolling so many times that unless noise is huge everything is going to end up being detected very easily.
[Thu 06] [21:45:43] <Verminator> I think Tactics might reward certain mixtures. For instance, you take a tactic that makes your tanks take damage before anything else, maybe?
[Thu 06] [21:46:24] <Squishy> what I read implied to me that some planets lend better to certain unit types due to environment/terrain/situation
[Thu 06] [21:46:27] <~Arcalane> HM: So we make dedicated sensor ships expensive and fragile, and non-dedicated modules kind-of-crap
[Thu 06] [21:46:33] <Squishy> ie heavy urban setting = infantry rules
[Thu 06] [21:47:00] <Verminator> Did I not say that explicitly? Yeah, I meant that. I'll edit it in.
[Thu 06] [21:47:03] <Squishy> turbulant atmosphere = penalty for aeiral, kind of.
[Thu 06] [21:47:13] <Verminator> Exactly.
[Thu 06] [21:47:51] <Squishy> what about subdivisions?
[Thu 06] [21:48:09] <~Arcalane> also there should be counter-scanning systems that reduce enemy sensor effectiveness by generating fake noise, etc.
[Thu 06] [21:48:10] <HorseMonster> Arc: Alternatively we find a more elegant solution.
[Thu 06] [21:48:17] <~Arcalane> like what? :|
[Thu 06] [21:48:28] <HorseMonster> blech blech blech, lets not run before we can walk.
[Thu 06] [21:49:15] <Verminator> Subdivisions? Well, tactics and perks would kind of take care of that. I was thinking of making a separate list of perks for each subdivision that no other subdivision can take.
[Thu 06] [21:49:20] <HorseMonster> As I see it we can either pool an entire fleet's sensor strength towards a single scan, or we can use only the highest sensor stregth value from an entire fleet.
[Thu 06] [21:49:40] <Squishy> i say highest
[Thu 06] [21:49:55] <HorseMonster> I'm fine with either.
[Thu 06] [21:50:46] <~Arcalane> highest would probably work better
[Thu 06] [21:50:47] <Squishy> ah
[Thu 06] [21:51:10] <Squishy> how about: multiple scans as allower per each sensor scan equipped ship?
[Thu 06] [21:51:15] <Squishy> allowed*
[Thu 06] [21:51:31] <HorseMonster> We could also allow for modules that enable multiple scans per fleet per turn.
[Thu 06] [21:51:35] <HorseMonster> Beat me to it.
[Thu 06] [21:51:40] <~Arcalane> but then you get back to the "eventually everything will be detected"
[Thu 06] [21:51:48] <Squishy> after all, a successful 'scan' may not reveal all the information or all enemy vessels.
[Thu 06] [21:51:57] <Verminator> Aww yeah meta 2 dev crew is getting shit DONE
[Thu 06] [21:52:08] <~Arcalane> HM: could just make it a feature of high-end sensor modules, imo
[Thu 06] [21:52:25] <Squishy> you may need subsequent scans to completely catch all details of a target(s)
[Thu 06] [21:52:29] <HorseMonster> We can just lump it on the refuse pile of researchable techs.
[Thu 06] [21:52:36] <HorseMonster> Just like every other problem!
[Thu 06] [21:52:39] <Squishy> yes!
[Thu 06] [21:52:40] <~Arcalane> yaaaaay
[Thu 06] [21:52:46] <~Arcalane> hooray for SCIENCE!
[Thu 06] [21:52:52] <Squishy> well to start off, only one basic sensor module
[Thu 06] [21:52:53] <Verminator> Are we going for a prescribed tech tree for meta 2?
[Thu 06] [21:53:00] <Squishy> probably
[Thu 06] [21:53:14] <Verminator> Sounds good. I think that's the best solution.
[Thu 06] [21:53:35] <Verminator> Maybe allow independent "offshoots" from the main branches.
[Thu 06] [21:53:41] <Verminator> With approval, ofc.
[Thu 06] [21:53:51] <Squishy> something like, gun -> more gun -> even more gun   or   sensor -> betar sensors -> super sensors -> I can see you underwear from lightyears away in real-time
[Thu 06] [21:53:56] <~Arcalane> yes that is kind of the point
[Thu 06] [21:54:00] * ~Arcalane siiiiigh
[Thu 06] [21:54:34] <Squishy> okay, so we will take HM's formula to dictate the success rate of a 'single' scan sweep
[Thu 06] [21:54:54] <HorseMonster> I was thinking more Gun > Engine > Gun > Sensor > Time travel device > Gun
[Thu 06] [21:55:07] <Squishy> now to handle multiple scans:
[Thu 06] [21:55:32] <HorseMonster> One scan per "observatory co-ordination module" per fleet.
[Thu 06] [21:56:58] <Squishy> i'm going to lay one on you HM: Each scan module has these attribs : sensor strength, scan frequency (number of scans provided at this sensor strength), 3rd obligatory sensor-related thing
[Thu 06] [21:57:48] <Verminator> Scan radius?
[Thu 06] [21:58:00] <Squishy> when you want to scan shit, the fleet will eye-rape the target with X number of scans at Y strength, and then so forth for remaining strengths.
[Thu 06] [21:58:09] <HorseMonster> It's not yet determined if we will even have distance.
[Thu 06] [21:58:13] <Squishy> more scans = more complete picture of target
[Thu 06] [21:58:17] <Squishy> nah no distance
[Thu 06] [21:58:29] <Verminator> Fairenuff
[Thu 06] [21:58:36] <HorseMonster> Pssht, we can allow passive scans at half sensor strength so dudes don't instantly see you.
[Thu 06] [21:58:49] <Squishy> you can only scan shit from within the system/sector... can't see shit from across the lanes
[Thu 06] [21:59:52] <Squishy> this allows use from tons of shiity sensors or a few high grade sensors
[Thu 06] [22:00:05] <~Arcalane> 'cause a sector could be on the other side of the galaxy :D
[Thu 06] [22:00:22] <Squishy> yeah, lightyears distance
[Thu 06] [22:01:05] <Squishy> Arc, in this game, we have FTL comms but sensors are not FTL capable yet unless you scan something at close range and relay info via FTL?
[Thu 06] [22:01:26] <HorseMonster> Remember how I prattled a bit about locations in star systems?
[Thu 06] [22:01:27] <~Arcalane> it's called sensor relays and transmission-via-lanespace
[Thu 06] [22:01:57] <Verminator> got to go, bye
[Thu 06] [22:02:01] * Verminator (cgiirc@402E679D.EEDEEF3A.3E7A069.IP) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Thu 06] [22:02:25] <Squishy> i'll be heading out in a bit. What say you about the multi-sensor barrage suggestion?
[Thu 06] [22:02:28] <~Arcalane> comm relays, rather
[Thu 06] [22:02:42] <~Arcalane> bluh
[Thu 06] [22:03:30] <Squishy> Let me put it this way
[Thu 06] [22:05:19] <Squishy> Scenario: You know that the enemy has fleets in the system Avior. You have a single fleet, combined sensor capability is 3xScans of 70 strength sensors and 8xScans of 40 strength sensors.
[Thu 06] [22:06:01] <Squishy> there are four locations in this system: Jump Gate A, Jump Gate B, A planet, and an assroid field.
[Thu 06] [22:07:18] <Squishy> You are located at Jump Gate B and decide to dedicate a single 70 + two 40 strength scans to the other three locations, and withhold two 40 strength scans on reserve.
[Thu 06] [22:08:28] <Squishy> using HM's formula we get: Jump Gate A: 2 success, 1 fail / Assroids: 1 critical success, 1 success, 1 fail / Planet: 2 fails, 1 critical fail
[Thu 06] [22:09:23] <Squishy> Jump Gate A: one defense layer identified, one ship identified, one unknown signal confirmed
[Thu 06] [22:10:28] <Squishy> Assroids: Entire fleet detected (full composition data retrieved), One seperate vessel identified and one unconfirmed signak from a different fleet
[Thu 06] [22:10:56] <Squishy> Planet: 2 unconfirmed super large signals and goatsce
[Thu 06] [22:12:10] <Squishy> if the player had more scans, he would have eventually confirmed remaining vessel signals, THEN their details, and then any more is a waste.
[Thu 06] [22:13:31] <Squishy> say, he can use the two 40 strength scans on the jumpgate to uncover more signals and/or confirm the unknown
[Thu 06] [22:14:49] <HorseMonster> signak
[Thu 06] [22:14:53] <HorseMonster> I like that word.
[Thu 06] [22:14:58] <HorseMonster> Can that be something?
[Thu 06] [22:15:15] <Squishy> Yes, it is a typo
[Thu 06] [22:16:06] <Squishy> we just need to determine what information is revealed on: critical success, success, fail and critical fail.
[Thu 06] [22:18:35] <Squishy> or we can have, by default, all enemies are 'unconfirmed' signals and need to be reveal via scans.
[Thu 06] [22:19:37] <Squishy> stealthed enemies are 1 level deeper, and only show up as unconfirmed signals via scan, but only after all other non-stealthed objects have been identified.
[Thu 06] [22:21:24] <Squishy> shit gets a little complicated, but this method accentuates the importance of intelligence gathering and that having multiple sensors in your fleet, even low grade ones, will confer benefits.
[Thu 06] [22:23:31] <Squishy> Gotta go, if there is a more elegant, simple way to allow that stuff, put it down...
[Thu 06] [22:28:35] * Squishy (cgiirc@259C8D94.83B37F8F.20F31902.IP) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Thu 06] [23:20:45] * HorseMonster is now known as HorseMonster
[Fri 07] [00:04:38] <HorseMonster> Hey Arc, shall we go with 1 scan per fleet with modules enabling extra scans as a researchable tech?
[Fri 07] [00:05:30] <HorseMonster> That would actually encourage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_picket
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Re: Sensors and Intelligence Gathering

Post by HorseMonster »

Sensor Modules
You can't kill a thing if you don't know where it is. Sensor modules allow ships to effectively search locations within a system for ships and other objects.

Sensor Strength
The primary stat of sensor modules, determines the likelihood of detecting an object and also influences the quality of data gathered.

Scan Speed
Scan speed is the maximum number of sensor scans that can be conducted by a ship equipped with this module per turn. This statistic is not cumulative for ships fitted with multiple modules, use the highest value of the modules equipped to the ship only.

Performing scans
Within a fleet each ship equipped with a sensor module is eligible to perform a number of scans up to the Scan Speed. The player in control of the fleet selects the location or locations that he wishes to be scanned and determines which ship or ships will be scanning each location.

Effective Sensor Strength
The Effective Sensor Strength of a scan that is being performed is equal to the Sensor strength of the ship modified by the below factors.

Noise
Noise is ambient interference caused by various phenomena in the universe, each location in a system will have a Noise value and all scans directed at that location will suffer from the same level of Noise interference.

Jamming
Jamming is artificial noise intentionally directed at a fleet to impede its ability to detect targets. A ship with a jamming module may be ordered to engage its jamming equipment once per turn. The player in command of the ship selects a region within the system for the ship to jam, all ships within the jammed region suffer a penalty to all of their scanning attempts until the subsequent turn. Fleets located in space that a jammer is jamming will be aware that they are being jammed.

Stealth
Stealth is a means of passively avoiding detection, the penalty to detection for stealth systems is applied only when scanning targets equipped with stealth technology.

Resolving the Scan

To find the result of the scan a GM will roll 1D100 for each potentially detected object and compare the result to the Effective Sensor Strength of the scanning vessel, if the result of the roll is equal to or less than the ESS of the scanning ship then the object has been detected. (Rolls of 96-100 are always considered to have failed and rolls of 1-5 are always considered successful)

Information Revealed by scans

to determine exactly what information has been gathered on a detected target by a scan find the Margin of Success, this is the difference between the effective sensor strength of the scanning vessel and the result of the D100 roll. Once this is done consult the following table.

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D100 Result| Information revealed
-----------------------------------
0-4  	     | Target Detected
5-10	      | Target Detected, size estimation
11-20        | Target Detected, size estimation, Type, faction
21-30        | Target Detected, size estimation, Type, faction, classification
31-40        | Target Detected, size estimation, Type, faction, classification, damage status
40+          | Target Detected, size estimation, Type, faction, classification, damage status, specific object name
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