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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:07 pm 
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th15 is being a prat and saying this is a silly idea and coming up with daft arguments to try and counter it.

Quote:
[10:49] th15: how about you convince me about why we need min max targeting in a game where you can force fire again?
[10:50] th15: or inadvertently hit non targeted objects
[10:50] Kaelis: For weapons that shoot at targets of certain sizes only? Isnt that obvious?
[10:50] th15: yesssssss and ive been through this
[10:51] th15: because i tried to implement fighters at one point
[10:51] th15: and it didn't work at all
[10:51] th15: because of the way bullets are handled, you're still going to be able to hit targets that you're not actually targeting
[10:51] th15: so, even if the turret can't target the object
[10:51] th15: it can still very hit it
[10:51] Kaelis: Well i must admit im kind of OCD about this one =P
[10:51] th15: still very well hit it
[10:51] th15: but it's pointless
[10:51] th15: because in the end you could always force fire
[10:52] th15: or if theres a larger target behind
[10:52] th15: it'll still get in the way and get hit
[10:52] th15: it's what made fighters bloody pointless
[10:52] th15: zipping about and getting hit by battleship weaponry
[10:52] Kaelis: People still do them
[10:52] th15: i even made them dodge bulelts 75% of the time
[10:52] th15: and they still fried
[10:52] Kaelis: Yep people keep trying to do them.
[10:52] Kaelis: *Yet
[10:52] th15: then they just haven't discovered why its bloody pointless
[10:53] Kaelis: And actually succeed. This would only help.
[10:53] Kaelis: But you do have a point, of course.
[10:53] th15: well it wouldn't succeed
[10:53] th15: because its not any better than the approach i used
[10:53] th15: and i had fighters as a separate object class altogether
[10:53] th15: that's why turrets have a l_ptarget
[10:53] th15: variable
[10:53] th15: its for preferred target
[10:53] th15: to tell the turret to fire at fighters first or ships first
[10:54] th15: but it didnt matter
[10:54] th15: it just doesn't work
[10:54] th15: if you want fighters, let the demeter use custom sprites
[10:54] th15: and beef up the demeters with better AI/movement
[10:54] th15: then only PD guns can shoot them
[10:55] th15: and we won't have to muck with targeting at all
[10:55] Kaelis: Okay so i guess ill just leave it for later, and try to do it myself. Ive never dropped a feature i planned, and i don't plan to do it now =P
[10:55] th15: yes but the feature hre isn't so much "min/max targeting" as it is "viable fighters"
[10:55] th15: applying this would'nt achieve the greater purpose
[10:55] Kaelis: Not really
[10:55] Kaelis: Its not just for fighters
[10:56] th15: you probably could carry the min/max target size constraints through to bullet collisions
[10:56] Kaelis: In general making weapons ignore certain sizes of targets would be useful. Class-specific weapons, so to speak.
[10:56] th15: so turrets will never hit what they're not supposed to
[10:56] th15: but that's another funbunch of code to mess with
[10:57] th15: useful how?
[10:57] Kaelis: For example, you have a very slow rotating turret. Now, you don't want it to target fast targets. You want it to focus on the big guys.
[10:57] Kaelis: Its very annoying.
[10:58] Kaelis: Weapons that are intended to be big hitters waste time on trying to fire at small, fast targets
[10:58] th15: this isn't a solution for that
[10:58] th15: that's a preference value, not a constraint
[10:58] Kaelis: Anyway, like i said, ill just try to implement myself later. Because even if its pointless and utterly useless, i just have to do it.
[10:58] th15: alright then
[10:59] Kaelis: Constraint is good enough, from what ive gathered
[10:59] th15: uhh you have to leave the initializers in there though, as there's code in a few places as it is now
[11:00] Kaelis: As for fighters, if we want a real argument, wed need to make a thread on wyrdysm. Because, lets face it, neither one of us has any experience with making ships in general, not to mention fighters =P
[11:00] th15: huh?
[11:00] th15: what's making ships got to do with fighters?
[11:00] th15: haven't you played that build of BSF with fighters?
[11:00] Kaelis: I mean the fact that people make fighters, and they somehow work, yet you say they shouldnt.
[11:01] th15: ... exactly how many players actually make ships that are sensible you think?
[11:01] th15: how many ships can sensibly be matched with each other
[11:01] th15: and not devolve into stupidity in two seconds
[11:01] Kaelis: Well im sure there are some...


~~

Quote:
[10:51] th15: because of the way bullets are handled, you're still going to be able to hit targets that you're not actually targeting


So? This is the case in real life too, is it not? You might not intend to flatten that house or annihilate that car with a stray artillery round, but it could happen.

Quote:
[10:51] th15: because in the end you could always force fire
[10:52] th15: or if theres a larger target behind
[10:52] th15: it'll still get in the way and get hit


Is this not a risk of flying a tiny fighter between two giant warships exchanging ordinance anyway? Lucky/unlucky hits are an eventuality. As for force firing? Many fighters are FAR, FAR too fast to get hit by projectile force fire, and would only be in the width of a beam for a few frames at best.

This could easily happen in a RL situation too. If you're firing your assault rifle at a commie bastard on the other side of the road and his buddy runs in the way, you'll probably hit his buddy rather than him.

~~

It is possible to make fighters that actually work well and don't get torn apart by battleship guns. Min/max target size is the next step to ensuring that. It also ensures that bigger turrets don't waste their time targeting small, fast ships theh have no chance of hitting.

I'll let others with more experience handle this though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:49 pm 
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There is that build of the game with the Nix fighters. Go twiddle with that. Battleships Forever was originally built with full support for fighters as an actual target type. I only gave fighters up because after much fiddling with them I concluded that they were unworkable.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:18 am 
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Since you didn't respond in IRC, I'll assume you didn't see this, so I'm reposting it for your benefit.

Quote:
[01:48] <th15> did you read the dev hlal thing?
[01:48] <th15> about min/max target sizes
[01:49] <Siber> What of it?
[01:49] <Siber> People have made fighters work as custom ships
[01:49] <Siber> Or so I'm told
[01:49] <Anna> I've made them work. Plenty of times. min/max target sizes are a good thing, imo.
[01:50] <Siber> I don't see how fighters getting hit in a crossfire is a deathknell
[01:50] <Anna> I don't want my big heavy guns trying to shoot at shit they have no chance of hitting, and I don't want my weak, short-range rapidfire anti-fighter weapons to try targeting capships that they will be useless against.
[01:52] <Siber> Custom ships have a much wider range of situations as compared to stock BSF. I'll argee that min/max size would probably be useless to the stock core ships, but they are not the life of the game.
[01:53] <Anna> For the swaaaaaarm: http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj18 ... ShitUp.png
[01:55] <Anna> See that big heavy cannon trying to track those fighters? It can't. Even if it could, projectile is too slow to hit them unless it gets really lucky. So being able to set it so that "This only targets shit X size or larger" would be awesome.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:34 am 
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As far as I can tell, fighters have worked fine, as far as we can modify a ship to act as a fighter. Implementing this would take away the fact that a ship brings it's full firepower to bear on a little fighter instead of on the other cap ship. Fighters *could* still be hit, but it wouldn't be 'on purpose'.

That, and your counterarguments are largely...irrelevant. No offense. :?

Quote:
[11:01] th15: ... exactly how many players actually make ships that are sensible you think?
[11:01] th15: how many ships can sensibly be matched with each other
[11:01] th15: and not devolve into stupidity in two seconds


This for example. I'm still not able to make heads or tales of it.

Quote:
[10:54] th15: it just doesn't work
[10:54] th15: if you want fighters, let the demeter use custom sprites
[10:54] th15: and beef up the demeters with better AI/movement
[10:54] th15: then only PD guns can shoot them
[10:55] th15: and we won't have to muck with targeting at all


I've thought of this as well, however Targeting Size can also be adapted to prevent a Dreadnought from using it's full firepower against, say, a meager corvette. And there is no way in hell I'm replacing my corvettes (or fighters, for that matter) with glorified demeters.

Quote:
[10:51] th15: because in the end you could always force fire


Ah yes. Because that would be 1) accurate 2) practical 3) fun. Uh-huh.

If you couldn't figure it out in the past, maybe Kaelis and Arc can manage it with your cooperation. Couldn't hurt to try.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:01 am 
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I've got a better idea. The best way to explain my concept is to give an example, but I'm sure a better system along the same guidelines could be worked out.

Add a new variable for both weapons and ships named 'Targeting Preference'. It must be entered as a number between one and one hundred. Weapons attempt to target ships with a variable closest to their number. IE, a weapon with targeting preference 100 would target a ship with 87, over a ship with 61.

For weapons, a zero would be available, and that would disable the preference. Default would be fifty.

It's not a perfect system, but it can be worked upon. And with a general consensus, such as big ships get targeting preferences closer to 100 and small ships closer to 1, I think it would serve it's purpose well.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:34 am 
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Its not as simple as you think, HK. Basically, without actually knowing BSF source, you have no business suggesting ideas how to implement things.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:51 am 
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Question: what are these units you use? Section count? Max dimension in pixels? Core HP?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:18 am 
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What units? We just use the ship size, as indicated by selection circles, or that circle in SM.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:20 am 
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So, Size of circle in Pixels?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:24 am 
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Radius.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:42 am 
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AWESOME!!! I love its simple elegance, Kae. You rawk!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:52 am 
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Uh... minmax target size doesn't work yet. Ill do it later, after the release.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:29 am 
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Just an idea, holy shit. No need to jump down my throat.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:59 am 
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Himura.Kenshin wrote:
Just an idea, holy shit. No need to jump down my throat.

Ooops, sorry, i didnt mean to sound so harsh. Was just saying that suggesting implementation tips/ideas is pointless without knowing the source - you're shooting in the dark. No hard feelings.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:59 am 
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I apologize for the tone of my original message, on a sidenote. I thought it was th15 putting his foot down and going "no", which makes no sense. CE has defied almost everything he denied. We have turrets, rotation, movement, even rudimentary triggers. CE has laughed in the face of what we thought were limitations, and done what we thought was impossible, and more.

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